One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. Firing Modes: Semi-auto. Reality. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. If an operator like a .45 go for it. Id rather be hit by a small rock than a big one. The fact is you will rarely ever have perfect conditions to take the well-placed shot. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. Wouldnt waste my money on it. I dont have the time to read it. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. Pretty broad pattern where adrenaline can also make hands shake. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. Startle affect. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. One round goes off, and you get a failure to feed. That use the same ammo is the way for me. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. So it should not come as a surprise that while the DoD's call for submissions for the new military Modular Handgun System XM17 contract doesn't specify a particular caliber or size, they will most likely settle on a new 9mm sidearm. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Plenty of gang shootings. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. Damage: 22 per pellet. We look forward to serving you. Shot placement?! As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the The objective of this study was to construct a Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. 1SGT. The bullet has far less weight and cross section than a .45 acp? FN DUH! One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. Maybe Obamas army should be issued paint ball guns so there is a non-lethal component too. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. The .45 is a less desirable round because of Air Resistance? Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. Good job! I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. I have also read that the 124gr NATO round is a +P. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. Just happened to recall the powerful 10 auto cartridge. But why not? Guns dont kill people. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. Sad. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. Ive come to a conclusion that many people lean towards the 9 mm including the military because its easier to control and thus are more accurate, especially for a teenager fresh out of high school. Every round has its purpose. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will only penetrate one side of a human skull. For those that think their their 45 is best, Ill shoot my 9mm and for those that think their 9mm is best, Ill shoot my 45. I shot Master for a while. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. Theres not the penetration of a 9, because the mass of energy is transferred suddenly to the body in impact. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. this was the part I couldn't wait to get to and dissect. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. 9mm doesnt work so well one at a time from a pistol, but we didnt have any expectation that it would. Thats funny. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. Damage: 23. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. Just bless his little Prsident heart. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. I am a colt Gvt. Thank you. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. Bullet was military Ball. If you know firearms and know how to properly use them than the caliber shouldnt matter. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? Some basic physics explains why the choice of weapon, or more precisely, the choice of bullet, enabled the suspect, James Hodgkinson, who was killed by law enforcement officers, to wreak so much havoc. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. The rifle round, which is longer than a pistol projectile, likely also began tumbling after its point collided with his hip. Knock down power. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. So any caliber is better than none. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. too powerful??? Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. Officer needs help!! Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. Let me now take you back to 1987. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. According to a sweeping 2016 survey, there were, at that time, more guns in the hands of Americans than there are cars on the road. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole and more holes is better than one hole. I read this after selling my XD Tactical in .40 to a friend and then settled on .45 GAP. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly After all, its SIZE thats everything, right? And speed kills barriers. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. What type of bullet is being fired? Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. Now thats hilarious. Whats more, for those who are considering purchasing a firearm for home defense, but have not yet done so, it is important to know what kind of firearm is appropriate for your needs. Involved in a shooting with my partner. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. Why do I say that? Make your best shot number one. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. Why arent both so much better than .223? I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? Which is better? I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. sledgehammer. So the moral of the story is: if youre 5 foot tall, and weigh a hundred pounds, the last thing you probably want to carry with you is a 1911. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. The quibble is over. Can someone comment on this? I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. Its a freaking tarantula. I still prefer the .45. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received.